Comments on: The Cost of Doing Business with a World Power http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html Thoughts about business, technology, the web & entrepreneurship Tue, 07 Sep 2010 17:13:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: xY! http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html/comment-page-1#comment-2763 xY! Fri, 29 Feb 2008 05:17:27 +0000 http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html#comment-2763 Interesting view. I like how you tried to offer a balanced perspective of the topic. I still think Yahoo is in the wrong, but sometimes it's easy to view the issue through US-only lenses. Interesting view. I like how you tried to offer a balanced perspective of the topic. I still think Yahoo is in the wrong, but sometimes it’s easy to view the issue through US-only lenses.

]]> By: Akrypti http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html/comment-page-1#comment-1102 Akrypti Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:13:34 +0000 http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html#comment-1102 I don't know how I missed this article earlier. Didn't see it until now. It is completely careless of Americans to throw around the words "totalitarian regime" with regard to China. China may still be considered Communist, but that does not mean it's a totalitarian state, especially considering communism's point is a classless society. What China does to many of its on citizens is condemnable, but same with the U.S. What Yahoo did in China is no worse than what every other corporation in America has done on American soil. We look overseas to point fingers and forget about our own sins. How convenient. I'm not evading the issue presented in this post. I just think our American perspectives can oftentimes be narrow to the point that it cripples us. I don’t know how I missed this article earlier. Didn’t see it until now.

It is completely careless of Americans to throw around the words “totalitarian regime” with regard to China. China may still be considered Communist, but that does not mean it’s a totalitarian state, especially considering communism’s point is a classless society.

What China does to many of its on citizens is condemnable, but same with the U.S. What Yahoo did in China is no worse than what every other corporation in America has done on American soil. We look overseas to point fingers and forget about our own sins. How convenient.

I’m not evading the issue presented in this post. I just think our American perspectives can oftentimes be narrow to the point that it cripples us.

]]> By: Mike Lee http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html/comment-page-1#comment-1070 Mike Lee Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:35:21 +0000 http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html#comment-1070 Also, I'm surprised no one caught onto this sooner. I'm really trying to defend Yahoo! here, because I was once an employee and know many honorable & good-hearted people there. But... ...Shi Tao wasn't the first. There was also: "Lijun Jiang in 2002 (four-year imprisonment), Wang Xiaoning in 2002 (ten-year imprisonment), and Li Zhi in 2003 (eight-year imprisonment), all of whom used Yahoo!'s Chinese services." Perhaps another lesson for Yahoo! is: get your data out of China! And think about setting up some clear guidelines for your Chinese employees on how to handle judicial warrants! (Both, I know, aren't easy & straightforward answers... I'm just sayin'...) Also, I’m surprised no one caught onto this sooner. I’m really trying to defend Yahoo! here, because I was once an employee and know many honorable & good-hearted people there. But…

…Shi Tao wasn’t the first. There was also: “Lijun Jiang in 2002 (four-year imprisonment), Wang Xiaoning in 2002 (ten-year imprisonment), and Li Zhi in 2003 (eight-year imprisonment), all of whom used Yahoo!’s Chinese services.”

Perhaps another lesson for Yahoo! is: get your data out of China! And think about setting up some clear guidelines for your Chinese employees on how to handle judicial warrants! (Both, I know, aren’t easy & straightforward answers… I’m just sayin’…)

]]> By: Mike Lee http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html/comment-page-1#comment-1069 Mike Lee Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:28:38 +0000 http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html#comment-1069 @Richard, thanks for the thorough reply. You are correct, I have not seen evidence of Yahoo saying that the majority of requests for information being used for murders and other serious crimes. In the press, I've only seen this in other cases. For the reaction from Chinese bloggers, yes, not all of those comments directly correspond to this particular case; some are aimed toward China's Internet censorship practices in general. My intent was just to give readers a general glimpse into the mind of a Chinese citizen and how they feel about their country, the US, censorship, etc. I see a lot of venomous arguments from US bloggers, so I wanted to provide a different viewpoint. And sigh... a friend just told me that Yahoo was in fact told the judicial warrant for Shi Tao was for an individual wanted for illegally trading "state secrets." That pretty much negates my argument of them not knowing the purpose of the judicial warrant. Oh, right, Yahoo! did not condemn China. I used that in my example though, didn't I? Sorry about that; good catch. Jack Ma of Alibaba.com, whom has a partnership with Yahoo, stated that he would've had no problem turning such information over, though he later added that he'd want to know what it was being used for. I'm just using him as an example here, but could his mentality be indicative of the mindset of Yahoo! China's employees? Could they also have seen the warrant, saw "state secrets", and still believed firmly in their hearts that the right thing to do is to turn over this information? This is all conjecture of course, but for the sake of argument, assume the above is true. How would you, as the leader of this US-based company, treat this situation? Would you fire those employees for going against the values of the company, as the committee members of Yahoo!'s current hearing urged? Or at least admonish them in some way? Sigh... honestly, I don't know. I can totally see the pros and cons for firing someone (they thought they were doing right, or just didn't want to go to jail -vs- they did something against the company's values). I can also see the pros and cons for for providing financial help to Shi's family (it seems like the good thing to do -vs- how much should be given; does the money come from the company or their own pockets or the Chinese employees who actually gave the info; does this admit guilt when the company doesn't want to admit such a thing; and what about the families of the other three journalists;). @Richard, thanks for the thorough reply.

You are correct, I have not seen evidence of Yahoo saying that the majority of requests for information being used for murders and other serious crimes. In the press, I’ve only seen this in other cases.

For the reaction from Chinese bloggers, yes, not all of those comments directly correspond to this particular case; some are aimed toward China’s Internet censorship practices in general. My intent was just to give readers a general glimpse into the mind of a Chinese citizen and how they feel about their country, the US, censorship, etc. I see a lot of venomous arguments from US bloggers, so I wanted to provide a different viewpoint.

And sigh… a friend just told me that Yahoo was in fact told the judicial warrant for Shi Tao was for an individual wanted for illegally trading “state secrets.” That pretty much negates my argument of them not knowing the purpose of the judicial warrant.

Oh, right, Yahoo! did not condemn China. I used that in my example though, didn’t I? Sorry about that; good catch.

Jack Ma of Alibaba.com, whom has a partnership with Yahoo, stated that he would’ve had no problem turning such information over, though he later added that he’d want to know what it was being used for. I’m just using him as an example here, but could his mentality be indicative of the mindset of Yahoo! China’s employees? Could they also have seen the warrant, saw “state secrets”, and still believed firmly in their hearts that the right thing to do is to turn over this information?

This is all conjecture of course, but for the sake of argument, assume the above is true. How would you, as the leader of this US-based company, treat this situation? Would you fire those employees for going against the values of the company, as the committee members of Yahoo!’s current hearing urged? Or at least admonish them in some way?

Sigh… honestly, I don’t know. I can totally see the pros and cons for firing someone (they thought they were doing right, or just didn’t want to go to jail -vs- they did something against the company’s values). I can also see the pros and cons for for providing financial help to Shi’s family (it seems like the good thing to do -vs- how much should be given; does the money come from the company or their own pockets or the Chinese employees who actually gave the info; does this admit guilt when the company doesn’t want to admit such a thing; and what about the families of the other three journalists;).

]]> By: Richard http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html/comment-page-1#comment-1066 Richard Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:56:34 +0000 http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html#comment-1066 A few points: - is there any evidence, actually, that the majority of requests for information about users to Yahoo related to murders and other serious crimes? Yahoo have never said so, to my knowledge. The only cases I have seen cited were in fact freedom of speech ones - Yahoo have now admitted they were told the nature of the case - the application was made in China. Hong Kong was a red herring (the immediate parent company was HK based) - Yahoo didn't condemn the government. Eventually, under pressure, they expressed their regrets about Shi Tao, but they never condemned the Chinese government. Those points are quite important: there are certainly arguments for compromising absolute principles for a greater good - but it is important to be honest and stand up for the greater good, or it disappears. I lose you where you suddenly go off into democracy and what Chinese bloggers say about American cultural imperialism. There's certainly an important issue of tone and humility (congressmen should be aware of the motes and beams in their own eyes). But democracy doesn't come into it. If someone's been imprisoned unfairly, by your assessment, you are entitled to stand up for them. In lots of cases all over the world, people have been imprisoned unjustly but with popular support (see the wrongful IRA convictions in Britain in the 1970s), and people inside and outside the relevant countries have eventually managed to win their freedom. Quite right too. Here's hoping for Shi Tao. A few points:
- is there any evidence, actually, that the majority of requests for information about users to Yahoo related to murders and other serious crimes? Yahoo have never said so, to my knowledge. The only cases I have seen cited were in fact freedom of speech ones
- Yahoo have now admitted they were told the nature of the case
- the application was made in China. Hong Kong was a red herring (the immediate parent company was HK based)
- Yahoo didn’t condemn the government. Eventually, under pressure, they expressed their regrets about Shi Tao, but they never condemned the Chinese government.
Those points are quite important: there are certainly arguments for compromising absolute principles for a greater good – but it is important to be honest and stand up for the greater good, or it disappears.
I lose you where you suddenly go off into democracy and what Chinese bloggers say about American cultural imperialism. There’s certainly an important issue of tone and humility (congressmen should be aware of the motes and beams in their own eyes). But democracy doesn’t come into it. If someone’s been imprisoned unfairly, by your assessment, you are entitled to stand up for them. In lots of cases all over the world, people have been imprisoned unjustly but with popular support (see the wrongful IRA convictions in Britain in the 1970s), and people inside and outside the relevant countries have eventually managed to win their freedom. Quite right too. Here’s hoping for Shi Tao.

]]> By: Mike Lee http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html/comment-page-1#comment-1063 Mike Lee Tue, 13 Nov 2007 02:50:18 +0000 http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html#comment-1063 @adam, thanks for the kind words! @adam, thanks for the kind words!

]]> By: adam http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html/comment-page-1#comment-1062 adam Tue, 13 Nov 2007 02:28:11 +0000 http://bizthoughts.mikelee.org/the-cost-of-doing-business-with-a-world-power.html#comment-1062 i like your article. also try to picture one trying to open a new search engine company in America under the light of the Patriot Act. delicious. i like your article. also try to picture one trying to open a new search engine company in America under the light of the Patriot Act. delicious.

]]>